I want thinking individuals, parents, who say: "Why am I doing this?" If the answer is 'cultural imperative', I want them to think twice about what they're doing. - Dan
I think after 3 essays and countless comments longer than all three essays, as well as quite intense and emotional debate, I cannot be accused of not thinking about what I am doing nor not explaining myself.
I appreciate that many people disagree with me. I appreciate that many people would not make these choices.
I would hope that people would understand where I am coming from even if it is not a place they would come from.
I would hope that those people who are my friends would still attend the bris of any son I had.
I would hope that those people who are my friends would refrain from calling me, and my father, and my fathers father, child abusers. Because I would hope my friends would see that that is hurtful and not the same as trying to make them think
This is who I am. Being Jewish is part of that. You cannot have me as a friend but not the Jewish part. Even if you disagree philosophically or morally with circumcision, you cannot have me as a friend but consider my a child abuser. If that is the choice you are going to make, well then I will have to live with the consequences. However if I am choosing where the greater harm might be, for me, loosing a friend vs. giving my son the best chance at a good life I think I can give him, well I'll side with my son.
I'm glad I have engaged in this debate, as it has made me think. And that is good.
However it has also been physically and emotionally draining for me. So hopefully we can move on from this, as I believe all sides have made good and thought provoking points. Well that is till Google brings in the raving anti-semties and other nutters.
Hopefully now I can move on and start discussion other important things like "do I keep my photoalbum or move to flickr" (and God please lets not get into that debate here)
Curiously I finished this on Christmas eve. I wonder if Jesus was circumcised. He should have been, being Jewish. Anyway I know most people wont read this, but to anyone who does
Have a Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Hanukkah, Festive Period, Winteval, and any other denominational or non denominational, religious or secular day. Whether you have a foreskin or not.
May all the best come to you and your friends and your loved ones in the New Year.
Postscript1: This was actually part of the comments of the last post, but I moved it here instead, so I could close off the debate but leave the comments open.
Postscript2: All this I guess is hypothetical. If anyone wants to find me a nice girl, then maybe it would be less hypothetical. Surely someone must know Natalie Portman?
1. TSP
Merry Chrismukah :)
And as for the New Year - have a very healthy, happy and prosperous one.
2. Amy Erica
Too bad you didn’t have this discussion in America, as no one would care. Most baby boys are circumcised in the hospital as a matter of course, Jewish or otherwise. As far as your points on why you would do it, your reasoning is a bit of a stretch, but whatever makes you happy. If you lose friends over it, then you should rethink your friends!
3. Adrian
Amy, Amy, Amy Erica. (That’s two first names)
Whilst I think you are actually trying to help me, I think the counter will occur.
Lets look at what I have written on this.
Post1: 560 words (+7 comments of 1436 words) Post2: 1523 words (+6 comments of 6374 words) Post3: 901 words (+2 comments of 3487 words) Post4: 441 words
That’s a grand total of 14722 words I have written on this. Not to mention everyone else’s comments.
To then comment that in America no one would care kind of misses the point of the debate that a people do care and believe this is wrong, which is what the debate is about.
I’m not sure you are so much helping here.
4. Adrian
And 14722 words is not a frigging essay, it’s a third of a novel.
Actually thats a lot to read. Skip it. I’ll have a film out next year.
It’ll be called “An inconvenient foreskin”
5. Gert
I am almost certain Jesus was because I am almost 100% sure that there was some bible reading thing at school that included his circumcision and the teacher explained what it was. I suppose I could be making this up but it would be a bizarre thing to make up…
6. Donalda Bint
Yeah, course he was circumcised. Actually, I know that in Sierra Leone Anglicans still practice circumcision on their weans, and in the Jewish way of … is it 8 days after birth? Forgotten again.
When i was born they removed my finger - no operation, just a piece of string and it eventually turned black and dropped off.
It was an extra finger, btw.
I think that is actually less traumatic (assuming there is trauma at all, for I have no recollection of it, obviously) than an operation for a wean of that age. Heigh ho. No abuse involved, sorry.
7. Jack
You’re wrong, sorry.
That sorry on the end makes it all the more convincing, I think.
Yeah Adrian, you rethinking your friends and planning on emigrating yet? ;) You can get away with all sorts in the colonies, don’t you know.
8. Adrian
So J-Bob got the chop. Imagine if he hadn’t and died from lack of washing. Boy history would have been different.
Yep it’s 8 days.
So, do you think you parents should have made that decision? Or waited till you were old enough to make that determination for you 6th finger?
I’m not emigrating, although it appears all my uncircumcised friends are. A few circumcised ones too.
And as far as I can tell all the colonies are getting away with is butchering … England at cricket and rugby.
9. Destructor
What do you call the useless bit of skin at the end of a penis?
A man! [rimshot]
10. Lori
“I would hope that those people who are my friends would still attend the bris of any son I had.” — Oh dear. Can I still count myself as a friend if I don’t come? I’ve taken on board everything you’ve said, but just can’t get my head around the idea of making a ceremony out of something that seems so… well, personal and private. Mind you, it might be interesting for someone like me who knows absolutely nothing about the ceremony or the faith.
More interesting than the two boring baptisms we attended last year, I should imagine!
11. Adrian
Most Jewish occasions are best with friends and food.
12. Jack
Exactly. It’s just not sporting to thrash us so thoroughly, what?
13. Destructor
Er, I passed out while watching Hard Candy, does this give me a free pass?