The discussion below on rape raises some interesting points. Some about what the law is, and some about what constitutes rape. In my eyes rape is sex that is non consensual, or in other (normal) circumstances consent would no be given. From the discussion below, this is not what the law views as rape. This might go someway to explain how man get away with sexual assault, as both the aggressor and the victim in many cases do not believe an actual assault has occurred.
This problem about what rape is; is a social problem, not a legal one. Legislation normally lags behind the social temperament anyway.
It reminds me of an incident that occurred to me. Or more specifically it reminds me of what I thought were very odd and surprising questions asked of me when I described the incident to friends of mine.
A friend of mine and myself where at a fairly empty bar. We ended up chatting to two girls and a guy fairly close to closing time. As we were having a good time, I invited them back to my place when the bar closed, since my place was relatively close to the bar.
Back at my place much drinking ensured. Shots where shot back and the relatively sober became the relatively drunk. The one girl and guy left and my friend left, leaving me (moderately drunk) and the other girl (very drunk). At this point most guys would think they we're getting lucky. I did. Especially when we decided we would go to my bedroom. Got to the bedroom and shoes and socks came off, but that was it. She then went to the bathroom and I waited.
And waited.
After quite some time had passed I knocked on the bathroom door, and got no answer, but did hear strange sounds. I open the door, and she had thrown up, and passed out, and was lying on the floor hiccupping or something, and shaking. I tried to prop her up, worried she might throw up again, while passed out and die. A dead girl kind of ruins a weekend.
I managed to prop her up, and clean up the bathroom. Then a bit unsure what to do, I managed to get her to the bedroom and into bed. I then got changed for bed and watched a bit of TV before going to sleep. I woke up before she did. Did some stuff around the flat and she woke up. I gave her some paracetamol and water and then she passed out again. Later after I had showed and had plans to meet friends for bunch I woke her up, offered her a shower and to join us (was all a bit uncomfortable). She turned the offer down, and got her stuff together and left. I never heard from her again.
This story in itself is not anything remarkable. However what did strike me is when telling the story to friends, several of them asked if I had tried anything on with her [once I had got her into my bed]. This really surprised me. My response was that even if it wasn't illegal, it was wrong and I really don't see the sexual appeal of shagging a near catatonic women. To this one friend asked if I hadn't even felt her boob. I replied with the same answer. All the friends did make a joke of it as if they weren't being serious which for the most part I don't think they really were, but it did stick with me.
This also didn’t come from just one friend, but several, both male and female. Which goes back to my original point, that we have social problem, where our definition of rape is pretty clear when it comes to violent assault and forced sex, but rather murky when it comes to alcohol and people beyond their capacity to say no.
And this is one of the fundamental problems. Socially so much of 'dating' is based around alcohol. Why? Because alcohol not only removes our inhibitions, but it removes the inhibitions of others a well. This is why we buy girls drinks when we meet them at a bar. Because we know if they get a little drunk they may be inclined to do the dirty with us. I have no issue with this, but do recognise that socially we probably have a long way to evolve. Myself included.
However we need to learn when to draw the line. And it matters not a jot if the person we are feeding the drinks to is happily and readily accepting them, or even if she is our wife or girlfriend. If that person is beyond the ability to make a decision on consensual sex, it's over the line. No debate. And no excuse or justification will convince me its not.
How many women wake up having had sex they don't remember consenting to because they were too drunk? It has nothing to do with how many drinks they accepted.
I'm not entirely sure I handle the above situation correctly as we did end up sharing a bed. However beyond removing her shoes and her socks I didn't touch her. Nor would I ever, regardless of how much booze was involved, unless I was totally sure wanted to sleep with me.
And strangely enough, my reasons have nothing to do with being afraid of being falsely accused of rape. Because I know where the line is.
1. Francesca
Many guys would have likely considered taking advantage of such a situation - hence the questions directed at you - but very few would have gone through with this. The lines are often blurred when alcohol is involved, but the situation you describe is one which is very clear. One would be very hard pressed to justify having taken advantage of anyone - male or female - when one is conscious and the other is bordering on the unconscious.
2. Matthew
I think most of us would have done the same thing you did, or at least a few of us have been in a similar situation and done the same thing you did, because most rational, sane, decent people know where the line is too. I’m also as sure as you are that the ‘didn’t you even feel her boob?’ bit was indeed meant in jest.
These are the reasons why most rational, sane and decent people don’t get falsely accused of rape, because most rational, sane and decent people are not rapists.
I think you handled the situation as well as was possible under the circumstances, as you were, as you say, moderately drunk, and she was catatonic. It would have been a bit much to ask for you to have gotten her into a more lucid state and bundled her into a cab or whatever, you were actually probably behaving more responsibly by leaving her where she was and letting her sleep it off, regardless of whether or not you ‘shared a bed’, as all you did was actually share the bed, you slept in a bed that she also was sleeping in.
I’m sure, much as you wouldn’t want it to happen, if the same situation were to occur again, you would behave in exactly the same way, and if everyone were as decent as you or I, wouldn’t the world be a much safer and better place.
3. Raspil
you’re one of the good ones, Adrian.
4. Rob
The problem is how to tell when the person is “beyond the ability to make a decision on consensual sex”, especially when both parties have been drinking heavily.
If one drunk kisses another drunk, and that drunk kisses back, then who’s to say that that’s not a consensual kiss? If the guy is sober, he’ll know if the girl is too drunk, but if they’re both drunk it can be hard to tell.
“How many women wake up having had sex they don’t remember consenting to because they were too drunk? It has nothing to do with how many drinks they accepted.”
It has everything to do with how many drinks they accepted. It’s fine and dandy to say that society needs to change, but it’s not going to happen soon, so people need to start taking responsibility. Man or woman, you shouldn’t be drinking so much that you can’t remember the night before. If you do, you’re putting yourself into a bad situation.
If someone drinks to the point of losing memory, and they end up having sex with someone else who’s also been drinking (which is what happens the majority of the time) and they don’t say ‘no’ at any point of the night, then I just don’t see it as rape. I see it as someone who regrets what happened but doesn’t want to take responsibility for it.
In your situation above, the decision was obvious, but things aren’t always that clear.
5. Coop
Was she fit?
6. Destructor
Did you sneak her Jesus Juice?
7. Adrian
Rob, Just because a girl accepts drinks, doesn’t mean she wants to have sex no matter how many drinks she accepts.
Coop, I don’t see what that has to do with anything.
Destructor, What? It was mainly vodka and tequila.
8. Matthew
Just because a girl accepts drinks, doesn’t mean she wants to have sex no matter how many drinks she accepts
It doesn’t necessarily mean that she doesn’t want sex either though. If you had been as paralytic as she had and you woke up beside her and neither of you could remember what had happened (now there’s and awkward situation) then she would have been as guilty as you of whatever had transpired. The onus of responsibility cannot always be with the guy, girls (and guys) have to realise that getting inebriated to the point of temporary amnesia is really, really stupid and irresponsible, and whatever transpires after the amnesia kicks in is at least partially due to their own actions. If they had enough control over their faculties to actually say ‘no’ and remember saying it then they can say they were raped, if in fact they were.
Although, for obvious reasons, it’s not always as cut and dried as that.
9. nat
in light of last night’s verdicts - could be an interesting debate on ‘sharing the bed’.
10. Ian
I hope you reassured her the next morning that nothing had happened. If not she may be under the mistaken impression that the two of you did do the dirty while she was partially comatose.
11. Adrian
The conversation in the morning was very limited. After I explained about having to clean up her vomit, she just wanted to get out and very fast.
12. Destructor
Did you say:
“I just cleaned up your vomit…..RUFF!”
13. Polly
‘From the discussion below, this is not what the law views as rape. This might go someway to explain how man get away with sexual assault, as both the aggressor and the victim in many cases do not believe an actual assault has occurred.’
There has recently been a big shake up of rape/sexual assault law. There is now more of an onus on the accused rapist to show that they actively sought consent from the woman, i.e not just assuming she was willing (or helpless) because drunk.
RE Raspil and Matthew’s praise of Adrian - I’m a bit disgusted that you think he deserves a clap on the back for not sexually abusing someone! It hardly makes you saintly - you must also have known how much the girl was drinking in your house, so you had some responsibility for her state, vom and all.
14. Matthew
I don’t think Adrian ‘deserves a clap on the back for not sexually abusing someone!’, I think his behaviour was honorable in that he made sure the poor girl was alright and that she didn’t choke on her own vomit and that she was alive. Adrian invited her home for drinks, but that doesn’t make him ‘responsible’ for the amount she drank. Surely the ‘friends’ of the girl (who left without her!!) had more responsibility for her wellbeing than Adrian, who had only met her that night?
Anyway, I wasn’t there, and I can’t vouch for anyone on what may or may not have happened. All I know is that the same thing had happened to me, I would hope to have behaved the same way, and I would have had nothing to be ashamed of in doing so.
15. Norman
If you had overheard her say “I really want a good sh*gging tonight” to a girl friend while she was sober would it have made any difference ? Why did you allow her to get so drunk ?
16. Adrian
Polly, I never claimed to it made me saintly. I was trying to illustrate how shocked I was that people even asked if I tried anything. I can only account for my own actions, and I wasn’t forcing the girl to drink, nor was I actively encouraging her to drink that much (my friend who was far drunker than me because her friend encouraged him to drink was). She was responsible for how much she drank not I. I was responsible for how I treated a drunk girl.
Norman, No more so than if I said “boy I’ll kill the next person who parks in my spot” counts as a statement of intent. A girl wanting a good shagging doesn’t mean she wants it from me, while drunk or ever. Consensual sex is a girl who has the ability and cognitive state to decide what she wants tell me she wants to have sex with me.
17. Rob
“Adrian invited her home for drinks, but that doesn’t make him ‘responsible’ for the amount she drank.”
“She was responsible for how much she drank not I.”
Actually, as the owner of the house you are legally responsible for those who are drinking there and could end up sued if they end up causing harm to others or themselves from drinking too much, just like at a licensed pub or bar. It doesn’t happen often, but the owner of the house can get sued, even if they weren’t actually serving the guests the drinks.
(And not trying to gang up or anything, just pointing that out.)
18. Norman
Very good Adrian. I’m very happy with your responses even though I’m not an FBI agent. :-) It doesn’t matter what anybody says, there must be consent. Rob is one hundred percent correct though : as a home owner [or renter or flat sharer et c.] you are responsible for the behaviour of the people who you invite in : I believe the legal term for it is “duty of care”.