There's Yiddish word schnorrer which basically means someone who is tight, someone who is always making an issue of money. The kind of person who gets a calculator out at the end of a meal, even though the split is more or less even.
Now I don't think I'm a schnorrer. I like to think of myself as fair. I like to think that it's the engineer in me requiring balance. However like the alcoholic who doesn't think he drinks much, perhaps I am a schnorrer. I've certainly had arguments with friends before when I've asked for money for things like petrol and or movie tickets I have bought.
See one of the problems is I hate asking for friends for money. It makes me really uncomfortable. But I hate even more just dropping it as dropping it starts to add up. So when I do ask friends for money I don't think it comes across all that well.
Anyway the particular reason for this thought is I cooked dinner on Sunday for some mates. Since I'm cooking more these days I've cooked for friends a lot more. And I've found it's bloody expensive. For example dinner on Saturday night cost about £10 for chicken, £10 for vegetables and sauces and 1½ bottles of wine probably cost at least £15. That's £35 for dinner.
Now if we had gone out to eat it would have cost £10-£15ea which is £40 to £60 for dinner, but would have cost me £25 or so less. Now it worked out fine on Saturday as my mates paid for my movie, and coke/popcorn which was all cool. But in general, I've got to the point where I can no longer afford to cook for people instead of going out.
I break dinners down into to things. Those where I invite people round specifically for dinner (ok dinner parties, although I don’t have that much class), and those where I cook instead of going out.
Now lets tackle the latter first. As I said above, if I cook, it costs me personally twice as much as going out. After a while this simply becomes prohibitive. I just can't afford it. I've asked in the passed for people to chip in which I see as making sense. Everyone throws in a few quid and I don't mind doing the effort of actually cooking. But aside from Dan this doesn't go down so well. Even when I have gone to the supermarket with the person, often people have watched me pay for all the ingredients and then watched me cook, and not offered to chip in at all. One friend has even said he would prefer not to eat at me if I'm going to ask him to chip in.
Now for me there is a difference between a dinner party (as such) and a dinner substitute. A dinner substitute is like going for a bite to eat and movies, but instead of going to Nandos I cook. A dinner party is when I invite people round specifically for the social aspect of dinner together. I would never ask someone to chip in when I have specifically invited them round for dinner. Although I did once have the idea of getting a whole group of my friends together and each on does a dinner once a month where everyone chips in a £10 for grub. However I don't think that would work so much.
Even with dinner parties, guests normally bring a bottle of wine or something. And dinners normally balance out ok if someone else is also cooking regularly. But I've found they never seem to balance out so much.
So I feel like a schnorrer. Although I don't think I'm being one. I think I'm a fairly generous guy. But saying "I'll cook if you guys want to chip in" just doesn't seem to be the done thing. And I simply can't afford to cook all the time. It works out cheaper for me to eat out in these situations.
So what do you guys think? You're welcome round for dinner if you chip in for the ingredients? You still want to come?
1. Francesca
I think you have the distinction right, at least in terms of etiquette. If you invite people for dinner, it is at your invitation and you ought to pay. They should (if they are polite) bring wine, gifts, even dessert if so inclined.
But if things are informal, i.e. you all go out and then end up back at yours, then everyone should chip in. It is very, very hard to ask for money in this case, but really you have no other option if people do not offer. The best thing, really, is to offer to pay for food if you cook, for example, or buy alcohol or dessert.
From what you are saying, it seems that you have to ask rather than people offering, which is a bit crass on their part. Then again, it could just be me :)
2. razorhead
It’s all about reciprosity. You cook, they should sing for their dinner. When a friend didn’t reciprocate, he was quietly dropped from the invite list.
I agree with Francesca, you shouldn’t have to ask. If I’m with someone who’s buying for the meal, I’d expect to stock up of the booze, or a DVD and snacks, or breakfast but something.
3. Karen
In either cooking scenario, it strikes me as rude to accept an invitation for free food, and then turn up without an offering, which should normally be something as straightforward as a bottle of wine. And then to return the invitation at a later date.
If your friends are not behaving like this, then they are either socially inept, in which case you are doing them a favour by pointing out where they are going wrong; or they are using you for free meals and you should stop inviting them.
4. Adrian
Ok, let me just make this clear, I’m not having a go at any of my friends in particular.
Some friends reciprocate often enough (and I mostly take a bottle with) and others just need to bit of prodding.
I just don’t like making an issue of it, as I feel like a schnorrer. Especially with the dinner replacements as opposed to the dinner invites.
5. Coop
I think that it all depends. Perhaps you’re a shit cook, and so being expected to chip in for a meal could be looked upon as a bit of an insult.
Also, since you are so willing to cook and you seem to enjoy it, perhaps your friends don’t have the heart to say no anymore, and suggesting to go to a restaurant instead of your dinner would be a direct insult.
But to be honest - I’m with you, and that some of your mates could just be tight themselves - but considering most of them probably all have jobs (and have given up their student ways probably a long time ago) expecting them to chip in with a few bottles or to supply the ingredients is not too much to ask in my opinion.
Another solution is to dish out larger portions to the people who have contributed….
6. razorhead
or maybe they just don’t like the alien.
7. NKL
I would expect you to PAY ME for the pleasure of my company at your dinner
8. nrgza
First off, Ade is not a shit cook - he made a tasty curry, and I don’t eat anything hot… and I enjoyed it.
The dinner was lovely Ade, and the conversation better than the atmosphere of a restaurant might have fostered. Being one of the guilty party who didn’t bring over any wine, I can’t argue against you wanting us to pitch in - I’m new to this ‘adult’ socialising thing though, and not far past my student days… besides, your taste in wine is probably miles better than mine! That said, the idea is now lodged in the ‘invited-out-for-dinner’ area of my brain.
I generally don’t agree with asking to be ‘paid back’… I know dinner parties usually turn out to be pretty pricey, but is the general rule not that one is re’paid’ with an invite in turn from your guests? That said, £35 is a tidy little sum for dinner.
9. Adrian
Nat, that’s just the thing, if you generally are being reciprocated or are reciprocating other people (as I do regularly with at least one friend)
However because of the size and pace of London, unless you live close to people it can be hard to do a regular thing. And some people just cook more than others.
Also as I said I don’t expect to get paid for dinner parties. Its the dinners that are being cooked for instead of going out. Like lunches while watching sport [bring and braai/bbq being normal, why cant you have bring and cool], or impromptu dinners, or replacement dinners (i.e. instead of going to a restaurant, someone cooks)
[Note the above post was in no way a criticism or having a go at you, it just was something I was musing over]
10. Duncan
Adrian, I think you are bang on with your musings. It’s quite unthinkable to turn up at someone’s house for dinner without some sort of offering.
It’sequally unthinkable to let one person repeatedly stand the cost of those meals which you eat at their house because it’s convenient. Prepare a bill which you can place on a saucer in the middle of the table at the end. You could even throw in a few mints..!
11. Ian
I have absolutely no problem with chipping in cash to cover the expenses of someone cooking for myself and my partner. Generally however I’m with her on the ‘you cook for me, I cook for you’ side of things.
The look of suprise on my face when you asked was just because it was completely unexpected… which probably means you’re not a scnorrrer at all. Next time I suggest a heads up when I’m concerned. Just a quick, ‘lets all pitch in a tenner’ or something will help smooth things over and avoid any awkwardness on your part.
Dinner at mine next. Bring a £50.
12. hbs
Adrian - if you are invited over for dinner/lunch you don’t expect to pay for it. You are expected to bring flowers/wine/chocs or offer to bring salad/desert. And you reciprocate by inviting them back. A communal bring and braai is different and arranged differently - then everyone brings their whatever.
13. Lori
If they never return the favour by cooking or bringing something to contribute, then I think you are being fair. I’d be cross too. Just stop doing it. Although, if I lived closer and was asked round, I’d chip in.
14. Adrian
Once again let me re-iterate (mom) that if I invite someone round for dinner, I don’t expect them to pay. Bringing a bottle of wine is a nice way of saying thanks. Flowers and chocs are mostly pointless for me.
What I’m saying is, for events where it’s not a dinner party, but it’s just a dinner substitute, like instead of going to Nandos I say, “Why don’t I just cook”, or if people are coming round to watch the game, instead of getting in Pizzas, I say “Why don’t I just cook”, then I would like people to chip in, without me having to ask. Otherwise pizzas, take out and Nandos is cheaper for me than cooking, which after I while I simply cannot afford.
15. Destructor
Firstly: You’re incredibly generous as a person. I think of myself as pretty generous, but because I’m broke half the time, I spend half my life coming across as generous and the other half as an incredible scab (you just have to catch me on the right side). You on the other hand, are consistently generous all the time, much to my constant relief (and if the balance between us is ever out, I hope you’ll let me know without qualm).
I make dinner for friends quite frequently, and not once in all the years have I ever asked for money in return. Usually friends bring some wine or dessert, but it’s not compulsory. However, as you noted, you often say to me: “Lunch at mine for a fiver.” and I’ll gladly pay, because you cook better than anywhere £5 could get me into.
I think the rule of thumb should be for you to establish the money situation BEFORE the meal is prepared. Otherwise you come across like one of those bars in Amsterdam where you order a drink and then they tell you it’s £150, and it’s too late to unorder and you have to rumble with the bouncer to escape (long story!)
But if you say BEFORE the meal: “I’ll cook dinner for ya’ll if you help me with the bill.” then everyone knows the score and can opt out if they’re broke or would prefer Maccers. But if you don’t establish the ground rules first, then you can probably only opt for a vague: “Feel free to chip in if you enjoyed it.” at the end of the meal, rather than say: “Thank you for dining at chez sevitz, here’s your bill.”, since there is, among friends, a general understanding of food providage, if invited.
It’s complicated once you start thinking about it, which is why I avoid thinking.
16. Destructor
As Lori points out, you should probably stop inviting everyone but me to dinner :)
17. Adrian
Ok so I think the take home message for replacement dinners is “I don’t mind cooking” should be replaced by “I don’t mind cooking if everyone chips in”
18. James
You don’t sound like a schnorrer so put your mind at rest. I think the nub of the problem is spending £20 on a meal for 4? That’s a hell of a lot of chicken for £10 and what’s with the £10 vegetables. Unless you are shopping at Fortnum & Mason I think you can make the whole problem go away by paying more reasonable prices for food. Unless all your friends don’t eat for days beforehand and need American size portions, ie one chicken each.
Otherwise just get your friends to buy the booze (at your local offie?). Nicking your wine is just scrounging.
19. Adrian
Ok used 3 chicken breasts which came to just under a kilo. They were kosher, so are slightly more expensive, than normal chicken breasts are about £9.50 a kilo and these where probably about £10.50. However that’s still cheaper than the West Country Free Range Skinless breasts I often get which work out to be from £13 to £15 a kilo.
As for the vegetables (and sundries), 1x Butternut (£1.50), 4x Sweet Potatoes (£1.50), 1x Garlic+Onion (50p), 1x Bottle of Spiced Tomato Tagine Sauce (£2.00), Mushrooms (£1.00), Cauliflower (£1.00) and 1x Sainsbury’s Tomatoes Vine “Taste the Difference” (£1.00) [Prices taken from Sainsbury’s Online Shop]
Which adds up to £8.50, which is a bit less than £10, but I was guessing as didn’t check the till slip, just remembered spending £12/£13 pounds at Sainsburys (not including the chicken which Ari brought from kosher butcher in north London)
So the food wasn’t unreasonably priced. That fed four people with the pot scraped bare. Sure I could do it a little cheaper by buying really cheap stuff, but I cant see myself saving more than a few quid. And the chicken couldn’t have been done cheaper as I needed kosher chicken, and like I said, that was even cheaper than good quality organic or free range chicken.
It wasn’t nicking the wine, they showed up and I felt like wine so I suggest cracking a bottle and everyone agreed. We finished that bottle by the time we ate so another half bottle went with dinner. I’m not complaining about opening my wine, was just noting how much it all adds up rather quickly.
20. James
OK, fair enough, you win. Altho £13 a kilo for organic chicken does seem rather pricey. Maybe it is just London - you can get a whole organic chicken here for £6 (altho admittedly not a 3 breasted one).
21. Adrian
I think whole chickens will always be cheaper than skinned and boned breasts.
And I’m sure things are far more expensive in London over out it.
22. Simon
you want quality organic shmatta….
you could try www.abel-cole.co.uk - the food is really rather marvellous, they have a 1.6kg chicken for 9.44 and other stuff does seem to be reasonable.
the deliveries are on a whole day basis rather than a particular hour but you can get them to leave it in a safe-ish place and the drivers and always really friendly.
just a thought
23. Beth
Hmm..maybe this is a cultural difference, but usually when I have a ‘replacement dinner’ I handle it by saying “let’s just meet at my place to eat together and we’ll go out from there. I’ll make X, if one of you will bring Y, another bring Z,..” and so on. And actually, it’s pretty fun….we usually all end up in the kitchen making our parts and uncorking a bottle.
24. Gert
It’s actually worse when it hits the other way - I usually end up going to people’s, to save them the cost of babysitting, and I always take lots of wine, but because they have children they only drink about two glasses, and I wonder sometimes if they’re only doing it out of politeness.
25. T. (formerly Dragon)
My parents always make people pay for dinner at theirs but that’s probably because they run a restaurant.
We always entertain, be it dinner party, party party, bbq party and so on but we generally expect people to bring copious amounts of alcohol and sometimes desert and/or starters. Being in the tight nit community that we are (we like strangers but only if they’re virgins and fit in the wicker man in the field behind the house) we often go around to each others houses for dinner.
The impromptu thing though is a different matter. If we fancy a bite to eat and were round at ours then we’d provide food. No questions. (But if we got a take-away then people would chip in.) If people took the piss and took advantage of our generosity, we’d stop. Or not invite them around again. Or burn them in the wicker man with all the strangers.